Should You Have The Right To Vote In America?
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.........voting is only for real Americans!.....
I don't believe anyone living or being supplemented from an entitlement program should be able to vote! I don't believe anyone that is a card carrying member of a Union should be able to vote!
Now entitlement is necessary sometimes as we live and go through ups and downs of life. This country has a mass of people who make living off entitlement their personal careers!
Anyone living off entitlement will want it to continue, they will vote for those that promise to keep it or make it even better! Now this is detrimental to the country and certainly not fair to those voters who are working and having their money taken by force to give to those receiving benefits! A friend of mine works for the city, a person came in the other day with only a work visa and received water benefits. Now this person is not even a legal citizen so should that person be allowed to vote? Another friend brought their parents over from Cuba and within 3 months they were receiving social security! How? they never paid a dime in! Should these people be allowed to vote? The resounding answer is NO!
Unions steal from big business! They bully business that someone else started and owned! Argue all you want against big business etc. There is no denying how unions take over and dictate and consequently ruin business and cause the consumer to pay triple what the product is actually worth! (GM vehicles too high, Harley too expensive, Construction cost out of this world up North!) Union workers are not unlike those accepting entitlement! Unless they have the brains to approach their own bosses and negotiate salaries according to their skills and work ethics then I don't see how they can be intelligent enough to vote for those that would be right for America!
Public Sector unions are bleeding local and state governments dry! Union workers making 65K a year sometimes retire after only 17 years with a salary of 150K a year plus insurance till death! Now can this person recieving this abnormal retirement off the backs of working class be able to continue to vote for those that would keep this up for them?......you decide!
The GM union spent 4 Million dollars this year on lobbyist! ......This my friend directly relates to voting or persuasion! Now how can they do this when they owe you and I something like 50 BILLION DOLLARS! from the bailout!!
Only those sustaining this country should have the power to run it! Only those making sacrifice for this country should be able to dictate its leaders, and the direction we choose!
Removing entitlement and union receiving persons from the voting pool will insure in the very least that the working class will be heard, responded too, and get those in office they believe in!
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I think Mr Redler disliked your suggestion.
Quite vehement really!
Perhaps you need some lessons in 'political correctness'?
However stating the obvious is always contentious, and note that your detractor added many categories of folk you never even mentioned... he obviously associates those folk with your description of who fails to participate in the tax structure.
Keep on hubbing, hope this one gets lots of reads, I'm sure it will have many comments.
@Mr. Redler - Everyone is entitled to their opinion on how they think things should be. So lay off the caffine and take a chill pill. AR has his opinions on the government, you have yours and I have mine. We are never going to agree on all things.
@AR - I tend to agree and disagree with some of this hub. But unlike Mr. Redler, I'm not here to bash you or say the things he did. I am with you on the point of non-citizens being able to vote. I do agree that non-legal citizens should not be able to have a voice in this country. And I don't think that they should be able to come here and get all the benefits that we as Amercians have worked so hard for... As for the Unions...I'm not familiar with how they work or what they stand for, so I can not accurately comment on that particular part of your hub.
I agree that C Reler is a condescending individual and arrogant. Certainly everyone has a right to their opinion and since we haven't sunk into Sharia law yet, we still have free speech.
AR, I agree that you should be a legal alien on the path for citizenship to receive financial benefits. Illegals should be sent home and of course if they need health care before leaving that is acceptable. I do no think they should receive Social Security.
Yea Agua, I wonder if Redler will send me a Christmas card this year? LOL, We used to have good debates, now he is just hateful, but I keep posting his comments, mainly cause no one else will,
GG good to see you! PS ever need an education as to the workings of Unions let me know! They force the workers to pay them out of their salaries each month as a type of protection money! In return they force them to walk off the job if the employer doesnt meet their unreasonable demands! Then they take the millions they get off the workers and give to Democrats and lobbyst to keep protecting their thug regimes! That's it in a nutshell
Pam, your too nice to have to listen to Charlie! haha, good to see you!
By the way...i totally agree that illegal aliens or in fact legal aliens, until they become citizens do not have the right to vote...it is the lumping together of groups...streotyping union workers as somehow not real citizens with the right to be participatory in our democracy...or people who have lost their job or illness and need entitlement also looses their right of citizenship...or pulic sector workers are not really workers...that should make real Americans boil...its not a matter of opinion alone...in NY Paladino wants to use prisons to house the poor...Huckabee wants us to throw away our babies that have pre existing conditions...they are not worthy of health care..some southern republicans want to end free lunch because it only encourages the spread of undesirables...that kind of language is reprehensible and ought to be identified as that...language like that should enrage any true American...and this not the first time Mr. Romance have vilified groups...strong condemnation is very justified...god forbid these people gain power. Its not condescending to identify racism, scapegoating, prejudice and blind hate...it's our duty...and I will also defend Joey's right to say those hateful things...as i am sure he would defend my right to criticize him. And dear Joey I have tried to have conversations lately, ebery aattempt is met with vilification or total ignoring of facts that don't fit your world view.Have a nice day everyone!!
By the way i sound dogmatic because joey has decided that compromise is UnAmerican and only pure ideology counts...once again very un American. I would love to compromise on political differences...shall we try that Joey?
Charlie, how can insurance cos cover pre existing conditions and stay in business? Why don't all of us only purchase insurance when we get cancer, Or be able to buy insurance when we wreck our cars! don't you see this is the ploy for government to own health care! It was put there on purpose! Obama knew insurance companies can not logicaly do this! What co wants you to come in plop down a couple hundred bucks and then turn around and hand you a check for 100 grand to cover chemo?
I long for the return to common sense. If you are in this country "illegally" then you have committed a crime and should be sent home. Anyone who isn't a citizen shouldn't be given the right to vote. As for the unions, well I can't go so far as to deprive union members of their right to vote. I would however suggest that the day of the union is over and really has no place in our nation. Our system has a lot of flaws, but it is still the best in the world.
I actually agree BP, I just wanted to make a point! thanks for the comment!
Perhaps unions are less relevant, because industrialists decided to screw the workers and move to slave labor in third world countries. remember, at our height of economic greatness in the 50s and 60s...the rich paid 91% of income over 400,000 to income taxes....the rich got richer and workers got to be middle class...the difference the wealthy actually invested in this country and our workers and were innovative...and as far as health care goes...will you all volunteer to tell a parent who's child is born with a physical problem that that child is nopt worth saving...which one of you wants to be on that panel...we have the best technology with one of the worst access to that technology...government has a place to make health care accessible...
---Access: Not surprising—given the absence of universal coverage—people in the U.S. go without needed health care because of cost more often than people do in the other countries. Americans were the most likely to say they had access problems related to cost, but if insured, patients in the U.S. have rapid access to specialized health care services
--The U.S. has poor performance on measures of national health expenditures and administrative costs as well as on measures of the use of information technology and multidisciplinary teams
--The U.S. ranks a clear last on all measures of equity. Americans with below-average incomes were much more likely than their counterparts in other countries to report not visiting a physician when sick, not getting a recommended test, treatment or follow-up care, not filling a prescription, or not seeing a dentist when needed because of costs. On each of these indicators, more than two-fifths of lower-income adults in the U.S. said they went without needed care because of costs in the past year.
Infant mortality--36 among nations---this makes Amerrica exceptional in the worst ways...we are not rich enough to do better?? come on...profit is your only moral measure?
You are saying what I have said for years! If someone is a government dependent (i.e. welfare recipient) they should not be allowed to vote. I also believe that these women on welfare that continue to have children should be removed from the system. They should be warned that if they become pregnant then they are on their own. We can't expect workers to limit the number of children they have because of financial needs only to have to pay out taxes to support those who continue to breed at our expense. If we have to support the children anyway it would be cheaper to do so by removing them to the foster care system. Then the parent(s) would be faced with finding work or losing their children. I have seen too many neglected kids with welfare moms.
As for Unions, they are the ruination of this country. American cars used to be considered the best. Then the unions practically bancrupted the car manufacturers and the Japanese car became the preferred transportation because of the low price. We used to be a manufacturing nation, televisions, steel, you name it we made it and supplied the world's needs. No more. Unions have made it impossible for manufacturers to stay afloat unless they move overseas where labour is cheap, thus putting Americans out of work. Some types of manufacturers have folded leaving the Chinese and others to supply the world's needs in those areas. Like any other parasite, the Unions are killing the host.
Nikita with all due respect the unions didn't ruin the imndustry corporate management did feeding the greed of Americans who need Hummers to drive to the grocery store...we bought japenese cars starting in the 70s because of the gas crisis and they made fuel efficient cars, when Detroit management for glutanny with no regard for anything. Management made the horrible decisions...unions allow you to have time with your family, a middle class life, a car, a house, decent working conditions...really ruined the nation...know your history before you bloviate the party anti worker line...and the wlefare mom is old scapegoating...get with the program...we stopped villifying those folks years ago.
Insurance was not to cover known things. People need to take a look at what the purpose of insurance actually is intended for. To insurance against a possible bad, costly thing that can happen. The insurances run statistical data continuously to know what the odds of things happening and the cost. They then sell the coverage, on basically a bet, that you will not have that happen to you.
You can't insure a sure thing. My house is going to burn down next month and it is worth $250,000 I will buy house insurance to cover it. No insurance company will sell you insurance. If they do they will charge you $275,000 for it.
Insurance is to there to cover your bet.
But now many think that a person with a pre-existing condition can just go out and buy $2500 worth of insurance and get coverage. That is like betting on the game 21, after you see all of the cards.
The way these idiots want health care to cover pre-existing conditions is going to ruin the healthcare industry.
I am sorry for the child with a pre-existing condition, but there are organizations out there to help them.
Keep on hubbing!
To have "American" in your handle and to have a belief so UN American is a brilliant show of the hypocrisy here. Again, you are the funniest man on hub pages. You don't intend to be, but what a show.
Texas, I wish you were smart enough to debate and give a common sense rebutal, Who is the funny man here? Your so childish! Come on candy ass, tell me one of your sincere convictions! Be a man and say this is what I believe and why I believe it to be true! What I wrote above is my personal opinion, I have that opinion because I witness the damage these groups do to America, You love to tell me I can't spell etc. Let me give you an example to the above, The Dutch allowed unemployment benifits for 5 years, would you like to guess when people found work? yep 5 years, They changed it to 4 years! Want to guess again when people got jobs? low and behold they couldn't not find a job untill the end of 4 years! Surprise Surprise! We will hire all the truck drivers and floor hands you can send me! We run adds on the net and local papers! We offer two dollars more per hour in some of our yards than the competition and NO ONE will fill out an application! I know what I am speaking of! Do you???
I don't understand your kind at all! It drives me crazy! How and where did these thought processes come to be in that tiny little head of yours? Did some college professor molest you while whispering socialist ideology into your mind? What is it bud? Tell me so I can help your warped uncaring DUMMASS! btw thats how I say and that is how I will spell it! ..............moron!
Joey,
I agree that folks living on the government's dime should have NO VOTE!! I am VERY ashamed to admit this, but I am a member of the AFT. The ONLY reason I joined is because folks are so damned sue happy for ANY imagined reason, and the union offers legal protection if I am sued; if I were to be sued, I would be sent to the poor house!! However, if my voting rights were tied to union membership, I guess I would just run a tape recorder in my room daily to cover my ass, and tell the union to go to hell.....where they would be right at home!
Joey,
Sorry to re-comment again so soon, but i just read the last portion of your interaction with the mental midget known as Texasbeta. Thanks so much for the HUGE belly laugh got from your words!! I deleted 2 of his comments to one of my hubs because his comments were nearly as long as the hub!! Like I have said before, you are a much more patient man than am I !
You lying hypocrit...holy smokes...you live in a right to work state and you choose to join the union for YOUR SELFISH reasons...everybody else in the unions are scum and sheri hates them...all but her because she is only in it for her selfish reasons...to keep a job she may not even be worthy of keeping but the union will protect her...wow..thank you dear sheri for pointing out the glaring hypocrisy of this whole movement...all those old people who want the government out of their health care except for medicare...you hate yourselves...you belong to the wrong side of history...you need people to scapegoat and convict for making your life miserable when you do it all yourselves...wow...thank you
C.Redler, you need a civics lesson. It is not nor has it been bigoted to believe in the concept that you should be contributing to society rather than suckling off of it in order to vote. During the Constitutional Convention of 1787, it was greatly debated whether or not to require voters to be property owners in order to cast a ballot. Why? Because property owners were the ones who were paying the taxes and therefore had a vested interest in how the government is run.
We are NOT and have never been a democracy.
http://hubpages.com/hub/Requiring-property-ownersh is where I dealt with much the same topic.
Hey Charlie, GO TO HELL where you belong!!!
i am sure my dear Sheri, you will greet me at the devils door...you love calling out people...say ahhh and take some medicine...solidarity forever sister...whine whine
and Troy you are absolutly right about property in the Constitution and property requirements ...although property in the Constitution mainly was a pseudonym for slavery..the states took care of voting requirements..but it wasn't just owning property..it was how much property that got you to vote and more got you office...that was pretty ok maybe...since Americans were mostly farmers...and you are absolutely right that our dear founding fathers were afraid of the masses...even such stalwarts of the common man Jefferson..but you can't open up the doors of liberty and not have others demand to participate...and if you know your history you know the big push to universal manhood suffrage was forged by people who were in the throws of the panic of 1819...and political exploited by Jackson and the democrats at first...sorry their were no republicans(in the modern sense)...and their state legislatures had to give all men the right to vote...white and 21...but when we became a serious industrial nation and we started en masse wage labor in cities...ownership of property was far more difficult...the working man demanded the same rights afforded those already included...i assume you don't object that women vote? You are right that democracy has grown on us and the people have been pretty smart most of the time...and the tea party is nothing new either..the free soilers that help rip up the Whigs and create the Republican Party...the populists that ripped the democratic party in the 1890s...no matter what when someone is elected to office they will ususally govern...and our founding fathers like Adams, Washington and Hamilton were definietly not for limited government.
C.Redler, again, you need a civics lesson...or at least a good history book.
You wrote, "property in the Constitution mainly was a pseudonym for slavery". Go read James Madison's notes from the Constitutional Convention of 1787. Mr. Madison's notes disagree with you, though slavery was discussed at length and slaves as property.
Again, you refer to democracy. Try reading Article IV, Section 4 of the Constitution. And again, read Madison's notes on the Philadelphia Convention.
I do not object to women voting. FYI, women could vote prior to the 19th Amendment. Blacks also held political office and voted before the 14th Amendment. Much of that freedom was abridged somewhere around 1913 and the advent of The Progressive movement.
You are very incorrect that "our dear founding fathers were afraid of the masses". Again, read the notes on the Convention of 1787. They opposed democracy because of history and tyranny.
Try reading behind Washington and Adams before saying that they were not for limited government. Washington was President of the Convention of 1787. Hamilton on the other hand, was an irritating jackass and I wish we would take him off our currency.
Boy when you don't like someone they are jackasses...Hamilton in his arrogance created the mechanism to unleash our entrepeneurial, capitalist market system...however...I just looked at the section you cited and it just refers to states creating republican governments...however same article section 2 they explicity are speaking of slaves by referring to the return.."No person held to service or labor...escaping to another state...must be delivered back to the owner. And leave us not forget the 3/5s compromise...and you are right Madison did change the parameters of republics..he had to convince people that a larger republic with such diversity would never develop a powerful enough majority that would destroy the minority ...and he wrote that in his Federalist papers...however, the electoral college, state legislature election of Senators are all indications of a major distrust of democracy but they left it to the states to decide which citizens could participate and with all do respect your comment about 1913 and the advent of the progressives...didn't get that...and by the way it's earlier and as you may know almost everyone conservative and liberal identified themselves as progressives..I will also admit there was a segment of the progressive movement, social genetic engineers that was way out there and that were proponents of the use of eugenics and sterilization to cure fiscal deficits and purify our genetics...oh and Washington used the government to crush at least one rebellion and supported the national bank and the move to DC...Adams also expanded the role of national goverment and Jefferson exploded the federal govenment by purchasing Louisiana without Constituional right to...isn't history fun
hahaha, Sheri tsk tsk, now now! calm down! People like Charlie help our cause! LOL! Glad to see I'm not the only one that has enough once in a while! hey were human too! Thanks for contributing!
Troy,
thanks for coming by! I agree and appreciate your comment!
lol...ahh joey thanks for the compliment...people like you all prove how bad our civics education is in our nation...see ...we all have something to contribute...its always interesting when presented with facts, you ignore them...i guess they don't teach facts at Bart Beck U
"In a republican nation, whose citizens are to be led by reason and persuasion and not by force, the art of reasoning becomes of the first importance." - Thomas Jefferson
Just to mention two fallacies (errors in reasoning) above:
(1) Argument ad Hominem Abusive disparages "the character of the opponents, to deny their intelligence or reasonableness, to question their integrity, and so on. But the personal character of an individual is logically irrelevant to the truth or falsehood of what that person says, or the correctness or incorrectness of that person's argument."
(2) Argument ad Populum, "the appeal to emotion, is the device of every propagandist and every demagogue. It is fallacious because it replaces the laborious task of presenting evidence and rational argument with expressive language and other devices calculated to excite enthusiasm, excitement, anger or hate."
Reference:
Introduction to Logic by Irving M. Copi & Carl Cohen
techno, how does one find error with someone like Thomas Jefferson? Give up reading Logic and try David Limbaugh, Then write me back! thanks for the comment!
Just dropped by to see if C. Redler is still insane. He is. AR, you know you're getting to them when they pull out their bigot and Un-American cards. If C. Redler and his fellow libs are this pissed off over you expressing your honest opinions, it's gonna look like the fourth of July on the evening of Nov. 2 when their heads start exploding. Keep up the good work.
just dropped by to see if you were thinking tonite...guess we were both wrong...my head won't explode, but i do hope that the unraveling that will take place will impact you all first...you know...what you wish on others
Well Charlie the signs point to the fact we win by a landslide in the next 30 days! It will be interesting to see how or what happens, I don't see anything happening because the pubs wont do anything and Obama wont sign anything so the next two years in America is a stalemate.
I agree, depends on which lunatics get into the government. If the party of no comes in to destroy the government, they will get no where, worse than the Contract with America. If they come in to govern for the people then maybe something can actually get done, even the right has to discover that very old American word...compromise. If they come into the govrnment wanting a dictatorship of ideology, we will be the third world country our corporations are hoping for. I will admit very good chance the house and the senate fall...once again...historically speaking...nothing new in this mid term election of a two year President. Remember Reagan and Clinton had worse numbers at this time in their Prsidency. The important thing...VOTE...every American eligible
I must admit that C.Redler has actually made a coherent statement that I can actually agree with parts of. I've been thinking that behind all the bombastic bloviating he is probably a pretty smart guy.
right I am with you, thats his best comment ever! Charlie I'm proud of you! He must be back on his meds!
Why are so many people who are so proud of being American (or French or Chinese or Iranian, for that matter)so nasty? Is it that nationalism makes you vicious or is it that vicious people need something to pretend to love- in this case whatever country has the misfortune of containing them?
Who said the Chinese or Iranians are proud of it? They riot and die in the streets protesting their governments? We are proud of an idea and a culture that decided the fate of a country that turned into the brightest spot on earth! Best health care, The most money, technology, and a genetic cell that gives almost every American ambition and desire to succeed. That is America.
oh boys or boy and girl...give me a break!!I thank you and i am looking forward to yours as well.
American, This Hub got you many reponses, I hope that was your intention. You have gone too far, even if you are on the far right. If this is what you truly believe, we are much farther apart than I thought. H
American,
I am sorry but the Constitution protects everyone's right to vote. My Americans have fought and died for giving this right to all Americans and I take often to your idea of taking it away from your fellow Americans.
Hey, by your own suggestion, you are saying anyone 65 or older would not be allowed to vote because they would be getting money from an entitlement program since Social Security is one. Do you know that would actually hurt conservatives the most since they vote for the GOP more than Democrats? And no, I am not a liberal or a Democrat, but I am a moderate independent.
Have a good day.
I am just glad that people that hate their fellow man so much as this "person", will never get to have their views imposed on the rest of us.
It boils down to, "take away anyones right to vote if they intend to vote democrat, because we are right and they are wrong, and if we dont, then we will keep losing to them".
Unfortunately for you, you have to be in government to do these things, and since you cant get in government without these things, you will never get in!
Colonial,
Why would you or anyone want someone to vote knowing their only concern was to vote in someone who would increase or keep entitlement programs, 12 million spent in Vegas last year by CA welfare recipients, 400 thousand in Hawai, I toured 30 FEMA mobile homes yesterday that were given to homeless during Katrina and all were destroyed in side! These were 5 year old homes and were unlivable, These people will not make voting decisions to help this country, nor will they have the aptitude to want to learn and do whats right! They have no remorse for taking while others are struggling, Your reference to seniors is not what I am refering to and you know this!
I've never voted, but I will from here on. I've never been in a union, but know some who are. The union provides a sense of stability for them and their families that I don't have. My stability lies on my back and paying into the system through taxes should provide my stability yet it's failed my 3 out of 5 times. Yes I'm poor, but I've worked, the labor jobs, the "any jobs" to survive. I have no college education making it difficult to progress, but thats not an excuse. This is a free country in which entrepenurial spirit is everywhere. Unions exist, the poor exist, the rich exist, all deserve the right to vote. There are multitudes of different ways of life in action throughout our country, which has made our country great. On the backs of the working man, the union man, the corporate man, legal immigrants and illegals as well. We exploit each other and get exploited for our own benefits and reasons, some to gain wealth, others to just survive, others because they couldn't care less either way. We are a variety of peoples, of immigrant descendants or immmigrants ourselves. Our country is great because we all get a voice on every policy,law ammendment,etc. in one way or another. Whether we use it or not is also a choice for each of us. A.R. wouldn't it make more sense for you to encourage those whom you relate to and vice-versa relate to you, to use the right to vote, rather than wish those who believe and have opinions different than your own to not have that right at all. I respect much of your opinions but consistantly fail to see your respect for diversity and "Liberty and Justice for All". Still you consider yourself an American.
Thanks for the thumbs up!! Ditto
You can thank Jeremey for sending me here to you.
Wow - strong visceral reactions. I don't understand the no one on the dole should be allowed to vote thing when voting percentage is barely legal as it is.
At only 56% voting population voting anyway - it's not majority rule and is barely legit as it is. Plus - plenty of poor people vote against themselves anyway and vote Republican.
I used to vote - but no more. It's a farce and this country is a fascist state ever since the court decision that a corporation is a 'person' - yeah a person that never dies is like a freakin' vampire on society.
How about pissing and moaning about corporate welfare and how the corporateer's 'vote' (PAC$$$$) is a megavote compared to your puny personal vote at the ballot box?
ptosis,
how did that puny personal vote work out for us on Nov2nd! ??? America has woken! besides I side with business! Business is what has blessed this country! You and Jeremy seem to be a couple of left over cry baby hippies from the 60s, ..........no one can help you
If your on Welfare you should lose your right to vote in the general election. Those under 25 should lose their rights to vote and those who cannot speak english should lose their rights to vote. Those who the ones who elect democrats. That has been a problem with voting froud in this Country.
Salem, NH
Jocelyn, you said it truthfully, those are the ones who vote democrat, Now what should that tell America, even Harry agreed the hispanic vote got him back in.
Your hub doesn't suprise me...
according to you who should be able to vote??
just right wingers??
because that is what the voter bills that your tea partying governors have put forth. They target everyone who isn't a republican...minorities, ex-cons,immigrants, women, young people,first time voters and any one else who is likely to vote against you!! how is that for democracy?? oh yeah I forgot, from the jist of your hubs, you dont really believe in the same kind of democracy that the rest of us do, you know, where people get to vote?? explain the bill to your readers by the michigan tea-party govenor that abolishes local elections and leaves the accountablity out of reach for voters!! you guys hide behind the flag and the constitution, but in reality, if you got power, we's be heading for totalitarianism. thats what the debates in Michigan and wisconsin say to the average educated(disenfranchised) american. the tea partiers want oligarchy!! show me differntly!!
If we never had had the union movement, we'd all work weekends....thats good with you though? right?
anyways, its was the jews, not the hispanics that put reid over in nevada(by a decent margin I might add)
because Sharon Angle made comments about abolishing or severly restucturing, if not privatizing social security. well nevada is a big retiree state, regardless of race!! big suprise, the most of the smarter old people don't agree with your radical tea party agenda!
privatizing social security?? are you serious? you must be stoned on Jesus!!
after the melt down we had on Wall street?, you teapartiers want to risk that huge chunk of the budget >??
for what? so your cronies can make a few MORE billion?
i guess so!!! because any other reason would defy gravity itself! i agree that we have to restructure FOR the baby boomers like yourself, but the S.S fund has been plundered again and again for political reasons, and that is what we cannot afford. WORKING people PAY INTO that fund, and deserve the money BACK. What they dont deserve is for it to be gambled away by a handful of greedy day traders, or sequestered by you and your ilk.
you said you wanted to debate? I all ready addressed unions and working weekends and you continue to rant? I deleted comments on another hub and will continue, your a loon friend and have no idea how to have a conversation.
I keep asking you questions about issues that YOUR writing about, like the bills effecting the working class in the midwest...you refuse to answer telling me I dont know how to talk!! do you know how to read,? or is the material too complicated? or the questions too vague?
what do you think about the bill that kills local elections?? I think it is effectively taxation without representation!! what do you think AR?
I think that was a plain enough question.
now speak!!!!!
do you know about it or should I inform you?
Sir Slave, my silence is because you don't want to debate, you continue to resort to name calling, How about debating real facts, Dems leaving democracy on the table to high tail it out of state, Doctors giving fake notes to teachers to collect pay while leaving kids in the classroom? and death threats to Republicans over what the people voted,
Defend health care, same thing happened to Republicans ..except they didn't leave the post! This is what happens when the people put politicians in place by majority vote to do their bidding.
Just to jump in here, but Sir, Henry Ford started the eight-hour-a-day, five-day work week, WITHOUT the help of any UNION....
AR, you are 100% correct, the American voter should NOT be dependent upon the government for a living.
Thank you for at least talking now, its a start, so lets see where we can go!!
I agree all isn't nice in politics. when drastic action is taken, it requires a drastic response(i guess)
No the republicans didn't leave the debate during health care, they just echoed lies about death panels and such!
I can decern an answer to my question by your response.
i wanted to know where the tea party stood(average guys like you) with regards to the Michigan law, that dissolves elected local governments.
"this is what happens when people put politicians in place by majority to do their bidding."
thank you for confirming that you are against elections!
that is simply all you had to say. I certainly wont ask you who you like in the primary then!! your not into elections!!
pols get death threats daily, both parties!
especially ones embroiled in a national covered dispute like this. people let their emotions boil over, it happens on both sides of the political spectrum daily!
lets not get into that, because we both know there have been PLENTY of right winged nut jobs like Mcveigh who have killed plenty. not acknowleding this is the mark of immaturity, so don't do it, its not needed.
pps: sorry about the perceived name calling, what I should have said was " can you comprehend what you are reading?"
so you claim to be anti-violent?
what did you think of the assasination of dr. George Tiller. ?
There are NO LIES about death panels, there are means to have end of life discusion in the bill? Thats a death panel,
Death threats show your true colors, these are coming from those YOU represent! Again after Arizona I thought all liberals wanted to play nice? By the way conservatives do not give out death threats, dont say its both ways when its not.
now, who exactly do I represent?
mon ami, the political spectrum is wide, there are more than two shades. there actually Was All kinds of talk about the government being involved with end of life decisions, which was absolutley and patently false!!
end of life counseling involves only the decisions of the family.....they get the final say, and you know it!!
I'm not a violent lib!! I am ghandi like. I just have some strong opinions that take you aback thats all.
no harm, it is only good being exposed to someone who doesn't see things exactly the way you do!! so who are the violent libs? or is mearly protesting and asking that 50 years of collective bargaining rights not be flushed down the toilet considered violent to you??
man that first ammendment gets messy when used.
so conservatives dont give out death threats??
what was scott mcgruder then, the welcome wagon to heaven? I'd say being shot dead by a fanatical right winged, right to lifer is a pretty threatening experience, especially since Tiller survived one shooting? what fantasy world do you live in that one side of the poltical spectrum is responsible for all the woes of the planet? humanity is messy, and our race is in its adolecence. it is people who stood up for their rights that advanced society to the state of relative prosperity we have now, not to mention spreading the wealth and creating a middle class. These things wern't given out by the industrialists of the 19th century, they had to be fought for tooth and nail in the twentieth century.!! all the rights and benefits had to be seized from the kind of people you seem to like to stand up for, By the kind of people I like to stand up for. The only people I truly repect out there are activists who have little to gain by their activism but a better world, which is no small thing.
C merrit.
Ford did in fact start the five day week, in 1926. what you left out was that it took lots of UNION involvement to make it a standard for everyone starting in 1940.
the almalgamated clothing workers WON the first weekend in 1929. these things weren't handed out.
Im sure many of the bosses and owners laughed when henry Ford did that!
they wern't laughing once the unions got involved!
those who don't know how to spell "ENSURE" should NOT be allowed to vote! You decided for yourself! :)
LIFE is hard, it's harder if you're stupid. Now, go back to class. Or if you're not enrolled; enroll!
I love liberals, the above comment has been made to me several times, (surprised spell check didn't catch that) anyway, these same liberals can only find gramer errors' nothing of substance,..........always makes me laugh!
Oh, you mean Wall Street and Big Business? Those guys being the largest recipients of the most expensive entitlements our government gives out?
Michelle, yes liberals love to bash big oil and big corporations, Obama loves to use catch phrases like "wall street fat cats" yet you never hear that these "fat cats" or top 1% pay 90% of the countries tax burden, ...........Oh and don't take my word for it, simply look it up on Google, ..................not to mention that the middle class lives off these fat cats and thank God these fat cats created business for the rest of us to have jobs!.............one last thing, ever got a job from a poor person??
First, I couldn’t help but notice that your pseudonym “American Romance” is a misnomer, it would seem to indicate your love of America. But to read your Hubs and responses we find that you actual hate most Americans and the American system of government. You should have called yourself American Contempt.
In a recent comment you wrote on one of my hubs,
“I love you guys! I love your comments, they never mean anything! No guts, no facts, only rhetoric, None of you could sit down for 30 minutes without getting your asses kicked in a serious debate! I would eat any of you for lunch! You all profess to be so intellegent and have so much insight, yet you never come back with anything that would sell me, nor others? Why is this? If you truly believe in your ideology then you should have something to support it,”
To which I accepted your challenge. You gave me the choice of your hubs to challenge, and I have chosen this one, to begin with.
I have read through your hubs and have a reasonable assurance that you are a Tea Party member. I can’t be absolutely sure because as you are aware the Tea Party doesn’t claim an actual membership, this is so they can disavow anyone who might say or do something that is found out to be unseemly. Any way, as a proud member o f this insurgent organization, I am sure that you frequently proclaim the constitution as your guide, and, bewail the demise of it’s principles at the hands of those godless infidels, The Liberals. Yet when it is convenient for you and your cause you would subvert or revoke its primary purpose, this being the institution of a representative form of government.
Just in case you are not aware of what this means, I will explain it to you. There are approximately 170 million people in America. (http://www.census.gov/population/www/popclockus.ht
This vast group is made up of many different races, creeds, colors and religions. It is also divided by sex. Every person represented by these headings has differing ideas as to what they expect from their government. The constitution establishes a governing body within which every one has the right to vote for a representative that represents those views. This right is not subject to any prerequisite for many obvious reasons, the utmost being subversion of the representative concept it self.
“I don't believe anyone living or being supplemented from an entitlement program should be able to vote!”
“Anyone living off entitlement will want it to continue, they will vote for those that promise to keep it or make it even better! Now this is detrimental to the country and certainly not fair to those voters who are working and having their money taken by force to give to those receiving benefits! A friend of mine works for the city, a person came in the other day with only a work visa and received water benefits. Now this person is not even a legal citizen so should that person be allowed to vote? Another friend brought their parents over from Cuba and within 3 months they were receiving social security! How? they never paid a dime in! Should these people be allowed to vote? The resounding answer is NO!”
Ever person of legal age, who is not a convicted felon, has the constitutional right to vote. And if by plurality they elect representatives that institute programs, laws or any thing else that is contrary to the minorities views, then by constitutional requisite the minority must live within those rules until they become the majority electorate. The framers of the constitution understood that times and ideals would change with time, and that the Government would by necessity have to change to accommodate the realities of each generation. They were also aware of the propensity of men to endeavor to make subject the masses and rule as a dictator, hence the rules of the constitution.
If those on entitlement programs were the majority (which they are not) then as the majority they would be enabled by the constitution to set the agenda for the country. Reciprocally, if the extreme Right Wing was the majority, then they would in turn make policy.
If you had your way, where would it end? If you didn’t win after you alienated those on entitlements, and those in unions, then who would be next to achieve your goals. Maybe it would be Old People because their going to die soon anyway, Perhaps it would be women because they vote for the best looking man. Where would it end for you?
As far as your examples, they’re like Michelle Bachman’s claim that someone told her that some vaccine made their child retarded, without proof and factual evidence they mean nothing, and are no more than implausible hearsay.
Unions steal from big business! They bully business that someone else started and owned! Argue all you want against big business etc. There is no denying how unions take over and dictate and consequently ruin business and cause the consumer to pay triple what the product is actually worth! (GM vehicles too high, Harley too expensive, Construction cost out of this world up North!) Union workers are not unlike those accepting entitlement! Unless they have the brains to approach their own bosses and negotiate salaries according to their skills and work ethics then I don't see how they can be intelligent enough to vote for those that would be right for America!
There are 14.7 million union members in the United States. That is about 8.2% of the population. This is hardly a percentage that makes or breaks an election.
The average union worker in the private sector earned $23.19 per hour, while the average non union worker in comparable jobs earned $19.28 per hour. This is only a difference of $3.91 per hour. And in most of these jobs the unions have provided the training of these workers through their apprenticeship programs, and a ready dependable source of competent employees for the employer.
The total cost of labor to the Auto industry is about 13% of the total cost of manufacturing. Labor costs for the average beauty salon is 50% of total gross income. I think the Auto industry knows they have a good deal going.
The reason for the bail out was not the union wage, anyone who thinks that has not thought it through. The bail out came on the heels of the banking debacle and subsequent recession and all of the automotive industry was affected, even the foreign auto makers, who have no union members and much lower labor costs, have needed governments money to subsidize them through the lull in sales. So your argument is moot as concerns the ruining of industry by the great union demon. And stopping the union members from voting would only slightly skew the election results in the direction that you wish.
Public Sector unions are bleeding local and state governments dry! Union workers making 65K a year sometimes retire after only 17 years with a salary of 150K a year plus insurance till death! Now can this person recieving this abnormal retirement off the backs of working class be able to continue to vote for those that would keep this up for them?......you decide!
If a municipality decides to go non union and this decision has the support of the majority of its population then so be it. If a government which was duly elected changes its public sector to union or non union labor then it is doing the will of its constituents, and is correct in doing so. But this is the only way that our political system should work.
The GM union spent 4 Million dollars this year on lobbyist! ......This my friend directly relates to voting or persuasion! Now how can they do this when they owe you and I something like 50 BILLION DOLLARS! from the bailout!!
First you say tat the unions are bullying and hurting big business,
“Unions steal from big business! They bully business that someone else started and owned! Argue all you want against big business etc. There is no denying how unions take over and dictate and consequently ruin business and cause the consumer to pay triple what the product is actually worth! (GM vehicles too high, Harley too expensive, Construction cost out of th
bunco, Thanks for the comment, by the way, I never beat the shit out of anybody in High School, I was being a smart ass on your hub!
Your trying I will give you that, the only viable argument you had was when will I stop if I get those on entitlemnt to stop voting?.......I like the question because I pose it to liberals all the time over gay marriage! when does that stop? After we allow you gays to marry children and young boys? My point is that seems unquestionable therefore it should not have been thrown in.
Unions have promised to spend upwards of 300 million dollars in the next election, I don't care if they are only 8%, thats a lot of money! And my biggest argument is those union people are not all Democrat! Who speaks for the Republicans in a union? ...kinda communist isnt it?
The reason for the bail out was union pensions! GM could have lost sales and survived but not under the giant load of pensions they have! If GM dropped payroll by 3 bucks a person I wonder how much cheaper my new yukon would have been?..........by the way you didn't mention FORD? ......they didn't take the money, I drive a Ford pickup now because of that!
Nice arguments, now where is the sell on your ideology?
I write you a well thought out fact based argument questioning the constitutionality, morality and agenda of this Hub, and you write this? The only viable argument you have is what? Then you contest your own assertion that it is viable with an example that would make it unviable. ????? Who speaks for those who are Republicans in a union? They do when they vote.???? Kinda communist isn’t it? If they were only allowed to vote for one party that would be communist by definition. And a union is like any other democracy, they vote within the union and the majority rules. Outside of the union halls they also vote and the majority rules. Where is your argument??? I’m mad because my Yukon costs too much? Is that your rebuttal? The sad thing is that in your mind you will actually believe that you won this argument. Take some advice, the next time don’t bring a knife to gun fight.
come on Bunko! You can do better than that! They vote??? What difference does their votes make if someone has been stealing 100 dollars a month from their paychecks and giving it to their enemies that are running against the one they punched the tab for? Do you believe that the same person getting 1200 a month stolen from his check also has 4800 each election to donate to the other side? I doubt it seriously! Yes of course I won!
Unions sucker in those by promising them the moon! They dont tell their workers the truth! They promise them great retirements, cushy jobs, and that they can be lazy and never get fired! Where were the unions with millions in the bank when GM was fixing to file bankrupt??? Where were they? Instead of dumping millions into campaign coffers, THEY should have bailed out those workers that they have promised undieing love to all these years! The only sad part is you libs don't see this!
Bunco, you are seriously debating this scumbag? Would you debate Bill the Butcher from Gangs of New York? You are debating a child in a grown man's body. First, GM pensions aren't entitlements. After WWII, the auto manufacturers couldn't pay higher wages, so they came up with a deal...lower wages for pensions for after you retired. It was considered an entire package, a promise from them that they will reward years of work on the back-end, rather than the front. Now, people like AR came in and wanted more for themselves, because that is what AR is about. They stole from those pensions and ended up having to pay it back, which they couldn't. They were never entitlements. Now what is an entitlement? Unemployment is insurance that we pay for out of each check, so that couldn't be. Social Security is paid all of our lives, so it isn't an entitlement, it is my money and yours. Welfare? You already got your welfare reform in 96. Are roads entitlements? Is a police force? The Fire Department, public schools and libraries?
Let's look at YOUR entitlements. You work in the oil industry. We gave $168 billion in corporate welfare to YOUR industry just this year, oil. NOW, how does that compare to, say welfare? Face it, you are just as much of a leech as anyone else is, even worse, in that you think only YOU should get anything.
The hub was about who should have the right to vote and who should not, and that is what I addressed. As far as the unions are concerned about 3% of a man’s dues goes to political contributions. Using your figures that equates to $3 per month, which would be $36 per year and $144 per election cycle. And since they make all that money for doing nothing, as you basically put it, I think that they can afford that should they choose to.
Besides that, I thought that you didn’t want them to have the right to vote at all. How about you explain to me your constitutional argument, or give me the stats on union voting and how it affects elections. Maybe you could tell me how the unions coheres their members to vote a certain way. Impress me.
texasbeta, you have a great argument in front of the crowd! But your not looking at facts! There is no 168Billion in the sense Obama loves to spell it! (notice he doesn't mention GE and ZERO TAXES now that he and the CEO are friends! What did GE make last year Texasbeta? wasnt it like billions?
More facts for you, Texas, Okl, NM, ...Cities near oil, 2% unemployment, no unions, What is the unemployment rate in Detroit?
By the way I work in the service end of the oil field, no subsidies for us! Were on track to break our first Billion this year! we recently hired another 340 employees!............Energy makes America great boys! Come on over and I will welcome you with open arms! You can stop hanging out with your suspected gay friends and I might even teach you to fish or hunt if your not afraid of guns!
Bunco were not on the same page, you don't answer questions which is typical of libs, Im no longer interest; but how does the union get them to vote? by teaching them to hate! When Hoffa jr recently stood and up and said lets take theses sobs out! ........well you figure it our from there!... When will you libs stop putting out violence? I thought we caused the Gifford thing and your president ask you to change to a nicer tone? that lasted what? 2 days. maxine said we could go to hell! etc. rough bunch!
Hey, for the record, I'm moving this week starting today, waiting on the movers to get here and pack us up. I intend to write a hub about the promotion and location package my company was kind enough to offer me. It will blow unions and you entitlement lovers out of the water! It will amaze you that without unions and crap a company would one its own perform to this level! Anyway wont be on Hub for a while, but I'll be back to do some more ass whuppin soon!.........meant for TB and his towel boy Bunco
Hey, Tex
The debate isn’t for the A.R., it’s for those who may read his Garbage. These people don’t look for facts; they have to be smacked in the face with them. And the ability to reason within the realm of reality escapes most conservatives. When I decided to begin writing here my goal was to expose Liars and Conmen for what they were, unfortunately some times you have to get down in the dirt with them to do it. By the way he didn’t post my last comments because he is either a coward or couldn’t respond with his usual drivel. I guess he can dish it out but he can’t take it.
Bunco, you didn't answer the question as to why unions didn't bail themselves out?
Bunco, I always post comments! Your second comment wasn't there, I saw where you made a comment but there were no words, I have no idea what happened, and if your compadre wants to tell you the truth, ask him how many times he has deleted my comments, in return I have never deleted his!
Please don't worry about the dishing or taking! I can take it all day long and have plenty to cover up your bullcrap with!
Unions have all ready promised 300 million to the next election! No individual working for a union could come close to that! Now because unions steal from the members and do this I do not believe the union members should be able to vote! OR if unions were treated as individuals then they would not be able to spend that kind of money and then everyone can vote their mind.
Kinda stupid for unions to give millions to dems while GM is giving it to Republicans to continue fighting the unions, don't you think? Import taxes are the only reason Toyota is now more expensive than American cars, Who do you suppose lobbied for those taxes? Unions! So are unions more concerned about people or their own pockets? Answer this before we go further?
Wow! you were in the marines and still side with liberals who hate the military? weird?
If unions have millions to put towards campaigns then why didn't they give that money BACK to workers so they wouldn't need pay cuts?
Great individuals do not need collective bargaining, only losers and those too lazy or have a lack of ambition to make it on their own!
You made your own point about the Japs when you said NO UNIONS!
Your loyal to liberals if they are loyal to you? I never knew a lieing liberal to be loyal to anyone!
My wife and I have a yukon and I drive a Ford, did you think we only have one vehicle? I can assume yes since you support the 9% unemployment rate Obama has cast upon us.
Unions lobbiest kept other countries from supplieing special made ships when we had the BP disaster so I assumed they were they only ones that would benifit from lobbying congress for equal prices against their competititon.
more later,
“Wow! you were in the marines and still side with liberals who hate the military? weird?”
First a correction, I am a Marine. “once a marine always a marine”
Second, your assumption is nothing more than a Republican platitude.
“If unions have millions to put towards campaigns then why didn't they give that money BACK to workers so they wouldn't need pay cuts?”
There are approximately 17 million union workers in the U.S., 300 million dollars (A bogus number) divided by 17 million equals $17.64 each, isn’t it time for you to start using your head.
“Great individuals do not need collective bargaining, only losers and those too lazy or have a lack of ambition to make it on their own!”
Let’s take your statement a step further; according to you we only need one man in each of the armed services, no political parties, no Tea Party, Etc, Etc, Etc.
The point was that the Japanese have benefited from American Unions.
“Your loyal to liberals if they are loyal to you? I never knew a lieing liberal to be loyal to anyone!”
Another platitude, you’re a very sheltered young man. My advice would be to get out and meet a few of your fellow Americans.
“My wife and I have a yukon and I drive a Ford, did you think we only have one vehicle?”
Your loyalty to Ford was mighty fleeting, that was my point. You talk the talk but don’t walk the walk.
“I can assume yes since you support the 9% unemployment rate Obama has cast upon us.
When Bush left office the Unemployment rate was 7.4%, the rate now is 9.1% a difference is 1.7 percent, that’s pretty god considering that it should have risen to the double digits. If your going to boast facts, get them right.”
“Unions lobbiest kept other countries from supplieing special made ships when we had the BP disaster so I assumed they were they only ones that would benifit from lobbying congress for equal prices against their competititon.
more later,”
More nonsense,.
And you haven’t answered the previous questions.
When Bush left office the unemployment rate was more like 6%, I have been moving to Oklahoma and have some great stuff to write about concerning the move. I watch your kind standing on the streets of NY wanting to take from others what they have failed to earn themselves and I know I cannot get into your head! You may have a marine uniform but sir you are not fit to wear it!
good day!
7.4% is a documented fact, and the uniform in my closet has two types of blood on it, mine and the enemies, so not only am I fit to put it on, I earned it. And I earned the right to occupy any place I please. My question to you is what have you done to earn the right to spew your nonsense, or do you think that just because you were born here you are inherently privileged? Isn’t that a lot like what claim others do?
I googled it as you should have done! The highest I found was 6.6%, I can't debate someone who refuses to acknowledge real truth!
I couldn't even find a rste that low. here is the wiki, and if you disagree I'll send you a hundred more.
"unemployment rate rose from 4.3% in January 2001, peaking at 6.3% in June 2003 and reaching a trough of 4.4% in March 2007. After an economic slowdown, the rate rose again to 6.1% in August 2008 and up to 7.2% in December 2008.[53] From December 2007 when the recession started to December 2008, an additional 3.6 million people became unemployed.[54] And, as of January 1, 2009, his last month in office, the nation lost 655,000 jobs, raising the unemployment rate to 7.8%, the highest level in more than 15 years.[55]
I'm done with you, you haven't posted one truthful or factual comment, neithet have you made any arguments that even come close to rebuttal. and frankly your boring me, its like arguing with a first grader. "Iknow you are but what am I, Iknow you are but what am I, Iknow you are but what am I. I'm tired of you humping my leg.
The first two I googled showed that! You got your info from wiki? ha no wonder! I love this, it shows the world just like the morons on Wall Street, just who you fanatics and haters of America really are!
C.Redler 20 months ago
you pathetic un American looser...you are a bigot...you got the ovens going yet? or first concentration camps...you the great Christo Terrorist will use your finger for Americans you don't like...I am sure you will love the smell...a few Muslims...a few poor people, some handicapped people who waste our tax dollar...a dash of union workers...a sprinkling of Jews, throw in a few native Americans your slave holding family missed and don't forget plenty of wasteful children with pre existing conditions and you would have quite a bond fire...Mr. American Romance of Hate.